FORUM CLOSING ON 14th JANUARY

Beefy · Ultimate Poster (Breaks off in decider)

RE: Who'll win the 2010/11 Abingdon League?

Super Midget CCCC · Regular Poster (Wins the toss)

Beefy,

Sorry strictly confidential!!!

Milhouse · Ultimate Poster (2-0 up in a best of 7)

Super Midget CCCC wrote:

Beefy,

Sorry strictly confidential!!!

If you are calling someone a cheat i think you need to explain yourself as this has got out of hand before.....

Beefy - dont start on the DF rule again - i was done twice on that last week at the Keys cry

PoolQueen · Ultimate Poster (1-0 up in a best of 7)

Milhouse wrote:

i was done twice on that last week at the Keys

Don't you start again Mark, I told you that as long as you hit your own ball first it's not a loss of frame foul! bleh

Milhouse · Ultimate Poster (2-0 up in a best of 7)

PoolQueen wrote:

Milhouse wrote:

i was done twice on that last week at the Keys

Don't you start again Mark, I told you that as long as you hit your own ball first it's not a loss of frame foul!

And i showed you the rule where that is not the case!

MING · Ultimate Poster (2-0 up in a best of 7)

Milhouse wrote:
And i showed you the rule where that is not the case!

Well do enlighten us with your perceived wisdom then Milhouse....

MING · Ultimate Poster (2-0 up in a best of 7)

Beefy wrote:

Super Midget CCCC wrote:

Midget C 8 - 7 Fitzharris Arms

hevy - ???
el tashy - cheat

Who is hevy ?????? and care to enlighten everyone what was meant by cheat - not the DF rule again

My information is that "Hevy" is Matty Evans and the alleged "Cheat" is Mike Wheeler.

Interestingly according to my sources. Peanut was actually the referee in this frame. So perhaps he could enlighten us with his reasoning....

Either put up or shut up...

Milhouse · Ultimate Poster (2-0 up in a best of 7)

MING wrote:

Milhouse wrote:
And i showed you the rule where that is not the case!
Well do enlighten us with your perceived wisdom then Milhouse....

Rule 7c

Failing to make a bona fide attempt to play a legal

shot will be deemed to be a deliberate foul and will

result in loss of frame.

8ballpotter · Veteran Poster (Potting like a demon)

Milhouse wrote:

MING wrote:

Milhouse wrote:
And i showed you the rule where that is not the case!
Well do enlighten us with your perceived wisdom then Milhouse....

Rule 7c
Failing to make a bona fide attempt to play a legal
shot will be deemed to be a deliberate foul and will
result in loss of frame.

Well isn't playing your own colour first classed as a bona fide attempt to play a legal shot? if you pot your opponants ball as a result then its just a foul !!

O.k for example: if i was going to attempt a skill shot in order to pot both balls playing my colour first but it fails? then how would you seperate the two ? one cant be classed as loss of frame & the other not? otherwise why would you be able to play skill shots in the first place confuse

DocJ · Veteran Poster (Pots the first red)

OK, lets have a look at this shall we.......

7c DELIBERATE FOUL

A player who clearly and intentionally plays a ball not 'on' has committed a deliberate foul resulting in loss of frame. A player who clearly and intentionally fails to attempt to play a ball from his/her own group, or play an 'on' ball after a foul, will lose the frame.
Failing to make a bona fide attempt to play a legal shot is a
deliberate foul and will result in loss of frame.

There's clearly nothing in there that categorically states that a player deliberately playing his/her 'on' ball on to an opponents ball and then potting it is a loss of frame foul.

However.......

5d Failing to perform a legal shot.

LEGAL SHOT DEFINED :

To play a legal shot the player must cause the cue balls initial contact to be with an 'on' ball and THEN must either . (a) Pot any 'on' ball or balls ( see rule 6b ) OR (b) Cause the cue ball or any object ball to contact a cushion ( see exception, rule 5g, snookers ).

This clearly states that if a player plays an 'on' ball or balls, they MUST then pot the 'on' ball or balls or cause any ball to hit a cushion, otherwise the shot is not legal. Now, in the case of a skill shot, a player is attempting to (or should be attempting to) pot his his/her ball first and then the opponents ball.......but if the player in question just plays his/her ball on to the opponents ball to pot it then there's clearly NO ATTEMPT to play a legal shot and according to 7c it's a loss of frame foul.....

No contradictions in the rules there, and in my humble opinion, we're doing it wrong in the Abingdon league.

Counter arguments and slatings on a postcard please........ biggrin

The Pool Shark · Ultimate Poster (Breaks off in decider)

We had this same argument a while ago. At length. I think we all decided, except Milhouse, that the ruling was quite clear and that DocJ and 8ballpotters interpretation is the correct one.

Milhouse, you could always try getting an official answer from the rules@blackball.co.uk e-mail address if you are still convinced you're right? If they agree with you, we will all eat humble pie. If not, let it be an end to the matter.

DocJ · Veteran Poster (Pots the first red)

The Pool Shark wrote:

We had this same argument a while ago. At length. I think we all decided, except Milhouse, that the ruling was quite clear and that DocJ and 8ballpotters interpretation is the correct one.

Milhouse, you could always try getting an official answer from the rules@blackball.co.uk e-mail address if you are still convinced you're right? If they agree with you, we will all eat humble pie. If not, let it be an end to the matter.

Hang on, i'm confused. I'm agreeing with Mark in that I think a deliberate potting of an opponents ball, regardless of which ball you hit first IS a loss of frame foul........

The Pool Shark · Ultimate Poster (Breaks off in decider)

OK. Then you're wrong too - in my humble opinion of course... wink

After all, a skill shot is perfectly legal if you pot your opponents ball first and then your ball follows it in - isn't it - that's the whole point of it!

8ballpotter · Veteran Poster (Potting like a demon)

The Pool Shark wrote:

OK. Then you're wrong too - in my humble opinion of course... After all, a skill shot is perfectly legal if you pot your opponents ball first and then your ball follows it in - isn't it - that's the whole point of it!

my point exactly Ash... biggrin

Milhouse · Ultimate Poster (2-0 up in a best of 7)

The Pool Shark wrote:

OK. Then you're wrong too - in my humble opinion of course... After all, a skill shot is perfectly legal if you pot your opponents ball first and then your ball follows it in - isn't it - that's the whole point of it!

Ash, what i am talking about is if you just roll your ball onto the ball over the pocket making no attempt at a skill shot, hence you are making no attempt to play a legal shot!

the apprentice · Veteran Poster (Potting like a demon)

We all know the rules but if someone plays that shot against me and I think it's a foul..I'm still going to call you a cheat. Just because there is a stupid little loophole which means the odd can player can play a shot to gain advantage of the table.

Honesty is the best policy...you shouldn't even need to play these types of shot.

Milhouse · Ultimate Poster (2-0 up in a best of 7)

DocJ wrote:

The Pool Shark wrote:

We had this same argument a while ago. At length. I think we all decided, except Milhouse, that the ruling was quite clear and that DocJ and 8ballpotters interpretation is the correct one.

Milhouse, you could always try getting an official answer from the rules@blackball.co.uk e-mail address if you are still convinced you're right? If they agree with you, we will all eat humble pie. If not, let it be an end to the matter.

Hang on, i'm confused. I'm agreeing with Mark in that I think a deliberate potting of an opponents ball, regardless of which ball you hit first IS a loss of frame foul........

Thanks Karl - glad someone agrees that this bit of blatant cheating is wrong!

the apprentice · Veteran Poster (Potting like a demon)

It is wrong. Very wrong.

DocJ · Veteran Poster (Pots the first red)

Matt, Ash.....read my post properly wink ......I AM saying that as skill shot is fine because of the attempt made to pot your own ball. As Mark says though, just rolling up to your opponents ball is making NO ATTEMPT whatsoever to pot your ball.......so therefore a skill shot is legal but a deliberate pot isn't.

I'm sure there would be marginal cases, which are hard to get 100% right but for the most part is patently obvious that someone isn't making any attempt to play a skill shot and is just clearing the pocket for lack of a better idea.

DocJ · Veteran Poster (Pots the first red)

And to add to my original post - the rules prove it. Please expalin where they contradict what i've said.....i'm always willing to listen rather than just labour my point incessantly.....

-- Edited by DocJ on Wednesday 6th of October 2010 03:41:17 PM

-- Edited by DocJ on Wednesday 6th of October 2010 03:41:54 PM

the apprentice · Veteran Poster (Potting like a demon)

You dont have to look at their facial expression or whatever to tell if they are genuine or not. I have played some awful attempts at skills shots, but they were just woeful and I got p155ed off when my opponent called me a cheat because of it.

They only thing you have to look at is your balls on the table. If your opponent plays a crap shot, trying to run onto your ball, pots it and then blocks the pocket., if you have balls tied up all over the place and think its impossible to clear up, tenner says it was delibrate. The opponent has thought "well, nothing better to do, i can take control of the pocket and its safe to say he wont clear up from here...." and bang....DF.

-- Edited by the apprentice on Wednesday 6th of October 2010 03:44:46 PM

8ballpotter · Veteran Poster (Potting like a demon)

DocJ wrote:

Matt, Ash.....read my post properly ......I AM saying that as skill shot is fine because of the attempt made to pot your own ball. As Mark says though, just rolling up to your opponents ball is making NO ATTEMPT whatsoever to pot your ball.......so therefore a skill shot is legal but a deliberate pot isn't.
I'm sure there would be marginal cases, which are hard to get 100% right but for the most part is patently obvious that someone isn't making any attempt to play a skill shot and is just clearing the pocket for lack of a better idea.

O.k yes i agree with that, but In my opinion its a grey area, its difficult in some cases to establish if the intended shot was delibrate or not?

Milhouse · Ultimate Poster (2-0 up in a best of 7)

the apprentice wrote:

We all know the rules but if someone plays that shot against me and I think it's a foul..I'm still going to call you a cheat. Just because there is a stupid little loophole which means the odd can player can play a shot to gain advantage of the table.

Honesty is the best policy...you shouldn't even need to play these types of shot.

Couldn't agree with you more!

DocJ · Veteran Poster (Pots the first red)

8ballpotter wrote:

DocJ wrote:

Matt, Ash.....read my post properly ......I AM saying that as skill shot is fine because of the attempt made to pot your own ball. As Mark says though, just rolling up to your opponents ball is making NO ATTEMPT whatsoever to pot your ball.......so therefore a skill shot is legal but a deliberate pot isn't.
I'm sure there would be marginal cases, which are hard to get 100% right but for the most part is patently obvious that someone isn't making any attempt to play a skill shot and is just clearing the pocket for lack of a better idea.

O.k yes i agree with that, but In my opinion its a grey area, its difficult in some cases to establish if the intended shot was delibrate or not?

Yes, VERY grey!

Seriously though, these are rules which are played by 1000's of people around the country.........surely a blackball spokesperson/rule setter/minion can answer our question once and for all. If they agree with the ruling that you CAN pot an opponents ball without making an attempt to play a legal shot or skill shot but not lose the frame, i'd like to see them explain how the rules state that.......

Milhouse · Ultimate Poster (2-0 up in a best of 7)

DocJ wrote:

8ballpotter wrote:

DocJ wrote:

Matt, Ash.....read my post properly ......I AM saying that as skill shot is fine because of the attempt made to pot your own ball. As Mark says though, just rolling up to your opponents ball is making NO ATTEMPT whatsoever to pot your ball.......so therefore a skill shot is legal but a deliberate pot isn't.
I'm sure there would be marginal cases, which are hard to get 100% right but for the most part is patently obvious that someone isn't making any attempt to play a skill shot and is just clearing the pocket for lack of a better idea.

O.k yes i agree with that, but In my opinion its a grey area, its difficult in some cases to establish if the intended shot was delibrate or not?
Yes, VERY grey!

Seriously though, these are rules which are played by 1000's of people around the country.........surely a blackball spokesperson/rule setter/minion can answer our question once and for all. If they agree with the ruling that you CAN pot an opponents ball without making an attempt to play a legal shot or skill shot but not lose the frame, i'd like to see them explain how the rules state that.......

I have asked the question to them as advised by Ash in a previous post.

The Pool Shark · Ultimate Poster (Breaks off in decider)

Thanks, Milhouse - I await an answer with interest.

Can we all please make an attempt not to unnecessarily quote whole conversations when we reply to threads? I've asked before, but the above page looks incredibly messy and there's no need to quote peoples comments 4 or 5 deep is there?

Twitcher · Regular Poster (Wins the toss)

As long as you play your own ball first it can not be called a deliberate foul! In the case of simply rollling the ball on to an opponents ball and taking control of the pocket everyone seems to assume that the player is attempting a skill shot, what if the player is attempting to simply rest his/her ball on top of thier opponents thus making it unpottable but simply hits it too hard or judges it wrong, not always easy to get the pace of a table correct. You can not call a DF in this case as the player concerned has attempted a genuine legal shot and if someone can tell me how to differentiate between that and a deliberate foul then be my guest!

Anyway stop complaining you should have cleared up before anyone gets the chance to do a DF :-p

-- Edited by Twitcher on Wednesday 6th of October 2010 04:55:47 PM

MING · Ultimate Poster (2-0 up in a best of 7)

DocJ wrote:

OK, lets have a look at this shall we.......

7c DELIBERATE FOUL
A player who clearly and intentionally plays a ball not 'on' has committed a deliberate foul resulting in loss of frame. A player who clearly and intentionally fails to attempt to play a ball from his/her own group, or play an 'on' ball after a foul, will lose the frame.
Failing to make a bona fide attempt to play a legal shot is a
deliberate foul and will result in loss of frame.

There's clearly nothing in there that categorically states that a player deliberately playing his/her 'on' ball on to an opponents ball and then potting it is a loss of frame foul.

However.......

5d Failing to perform a legal shot.

LEGAL SHOT DEFINED :
To play a legal shot the player must cause the cue balls initial contact to be with an 'on' ball and THEN must either . (a) Pot any 'on' ball or balls ( see rule 6b ) OR (b) Cause the cue ball or any object ball to contact a cushion ( see exception, rule 5g, snookers ).

This clearly states that if a player plays an 'on' ball or balls, they MUST then pot the 'on' ball or balls or cause any ball to hit a cushion, otherwise the shot is not legal. Now, in the case of a skill shot, a player is attempting to (or should be attempting to) pot his his/her ball first and then the opponents ball.......but if the player in question just plays his/her ball on to the opponents ball to pot it then there's clearly NO ATTEMPT to play a legal shot and according to 7c it's a loss of frame foul.....

No contradictions in the rules there, and in my humble opinion, we're doing it wrong in the Abingdon league.

Counter arguments and slatings on a postcard please........

Love it when this comes up....

It is generally accepted, in both National & International competitions, that as long as you play your own ball first you can do what you like including the alleged DF, giving away 2 visits.

Unfortunately, the words used in the rules are a little ambigous and contradictary to say the least.

As Ash has pointed out; there is no requirement on a "skill-shot" to pot your ball first and this adds to the confusion, especially if you apply the exact Legal Shot Definition as per the Rules.

(1) Player A plays his Yellow onto Player B's Red, which is covering the pocket in an attempt to play a skill-shot; The Red drops in but the Yellow doesn't. Now assumming that at no time in the shot does a ball hit a cushion, does Player A lose the frame as he has not played a legal shot as defined in the rules? He has played an "on" ball but neither potted an "on" ball or caused another ball to hit the cushion. His argument against losing the frame would be that he was attempting to play a Legal Shot, but the "skill-shot" didn't come off and I'm sure everyone would accept that this was the case

(2) Now, the argument that Milhouse etc have; that if Player A plays said shot with no intention of playing a "skill-Shot" it's classed as a DF as he's made no attempt to play a legal shot as per the definition and should lose the frame.

It's clear that their argument has substance however, if when playing the shot as per (2) a ball hits a cushion then Player A has played a Legal Shot as per the definition, He has played an "on" ball and caused another ball to hit the cushion, even if a ball doen't hit a cushion he could argue that he was attempting to hit a cushion.

In most cases where this "tactical foul" is played, a ball generally hits a cushion (even if its the ball over the pocket that hits the jaw of the pocket before falling in or the covering ball hits the jaw)

DocJ · Veteran Poster (Pots the first red)

Some fair points there, Kev.......

I understand if the rules are 'generally accepted', but if they're continuing to cause problems, why don't the blackball lot just reword them in order to avoid any ambiguity? Surely this must have come up and caused arguments before!? Are they completely apathetic, or do they just dismiss queries with a wave of their hand?

Point 2 definitely raises questions, and instances like that would be extremely difficult to judge, as would numerous other situations where a player could legitimately claim to be going for a skill shot, even if they didn't genuinely attempt it. I don't completely buy point 1 though - there are times when a ball may be covering another ball over the pocket, and the placement of the balls/white ball will make it clearly impossible to execute a skill shot by potting both balls in to the same pocket. Surely common sense must prevail here, as anyone who claims to be going for a skill shot is either cheating or has no understanding whatsoever about the laws of ball mechanics!

Come on blackball, give us an answer to sort this once and for all!

ANIMAL · Occasional Poster (Racking up the balls)

This happens in the oxford league all the time so i think people should just except it as part of the rules. You do get two shots so whats the problem.
People might get to scared to try the skill shot just incase they get called a cheat if both balls dont drop.